In the aftermath of Oleksandr Usyk’s commanding victory over Daniel Dubois, this week’s mailbag, with trainer Stephen Edwards, analyses your reactions to Usyk defeating Dubois a second time, what it means for his place in history, and what is left out there for him
Hi Bread, Hope all is well with you and yours. In no particular order, who’s amongst your all-time Top 10 fighters to never fight in the Olympics for their respective country?
Bread’s response: Okay in no order. This was actually easier than some may realize… Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Joe Louis, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles. I won’t take the easy way out and name all of the greats before 1950. But just note, boxing in the Olympics became a bigger deal in the 1950s. So I named five old timers and here are five modern greats; Julio Cesar Chavez, Roberto Duran, Terence Crawford, Marvin Hagler and Tommy Hearns.
There have been thirteen lineal heavyweight champions in the post-Muhammad Ali era. Oleksandr Usyk is as tall or taller than eight of those fighters (Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, James Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Hasim Rahman.) Usyk weighs as much as, or more than, five of those thirteen fighters (Holmes, Spinks, Tyson, Holyfield, Moorer.) Oleksandr Usyk is a great boxer. He’s a two-division undisputed champion. He’s defended a unified heavyweight title five times and has been at the top of the division for three years. He’s awesome. But why do we lie to give him extra accomplishments? He’s not a small heavyweight who’s doing something incredible by beating bigger guys. He’s a normal-sized heavyweight champion who’s beating guys his size or a little bigger. Lawrence Okolie made his heavyweight debut this past weekend. He stands 6-foot-5 and weighed in at 265-pounds. Are we going to pretend like he’s a small heavyweight because he fought at cruiserweight a couple of years ago? Of course not. So why are doing that with someone who’s 6-foot-3 and 228-pounds? Usyk had access to a sauna before he moved to heavyweight. Awesome. That doesn’t make him better somehow. I actually would like his resume more if he was a heavyweight from the beginning. Here’s another thing we’re pretending: that Usyk becoming a two-time undisputed heavyweight champion did anything for him. Usyk beating Daniel Dubois a second time didn’t enhance his legacy at all. Usyk losing the IBF was farcical. His first fight against Dubois was not controversial, he won every second of that fight before Dubois quit. It was maybe only controversial to Dubois and his promoter. Usyk did not prove anything in this fight that he hasn’t proven before. He didn’t accomplish something that separated him from Lennox Lewis. Are we really pretending that Lewis needed to beat John Ruiz to become undisputed again and prove he’s in the same class as Oleksandr Usyk? That stance is insane. I’m not trying to criticize Usyk. I think he’s great. I just think he gets extra special treatment. I have theories as to why, but they’re a bit controversial, so I won’t write them here. Do you see Usyk getting extra praise that’s undeserved, or am I just way too hard on a great fighter? As always, thank you for the mailbag.
Bread’s response: I love Ollie Usyk and I have sung his praises for years. I think he’s special. But you have some points that I agree with, some I don’t. Usyk being labeled a two-time lineal champion is a farce. He got stripped and he beat a fighter that he already stopped a couple of years ago to regain his crown. That’s the not the same as losing it and winning it back. Or being stripped like, say, Ali and coming back to face a new great champion in Frazier. So the two time lineal champion label is false advertising.
The size thing is tricky. I’ve always been a fan of heavyweight Usyk’s size. I love 6’3”, 220lbs. Ali, Foreman and Holmes all stand close to those measurables. I’ve always believed that’s ideal size for a heavyweight and everyone called me crazy or too old school. So I relish in the fact that a 220lbs heavyweight in Usyk is the best heavyweight of this era, and a 215lbs heavyweight Deontay Wilder is the best heavyweight puncher.
But just because I believe that Usyk’s size is ideal, it doesn’t mean he’s not overcoming a serious obstacle when he gives up five inches and thirty pounds. I don’t want to discredit that. But I do want to put it in context. After a fighter gets to a certain height and weight, it can be used against him because of the lack of stamina and agility that they often lose. It takes a special fighter to bring that out but it’s not as uncommon as some would have you believe.
Assalaam alaykum Mr Edwards, I wanted to write to you briefly after Ollie Usyk's complete destruction of Daniel Dubois and ask how Usyk ranks as an all-time-great rematch fighter. I believe you and I already in agreement on Usyk’s status as an all-time-great fighter and an all-time-great heavyweight. This knockout win puts him squarely above Lennox Lewis in my estimation, as well as above Evander Holyfield pound for pound. I imagine your historical perspective (which is better than mine) leaves Usyk slightly lower on your list, but I would be very interested to know if his demolition job changed it at all for you. I hope this finds you and yours well and I send prayers and blessings to you and your family. Thank you for all you do for the sport. Ma salaam, John
Bread’s response: I think Usyk is the best heavyweight since Lennox Lewis. I believe he’s the best cruiserweight since Evander Holyfield. I think he’s a top ten fighter of this century. And he’s a top ten southpaw ever. I don’t want to over or under value him. I have seen some say he’s the GOAT at heavyweight. That’s a stretch because he beat Chazz Witherspoon, Dereck Chisora, Fury 2x, Joshua 2x and Dubois 2x. That’s a solid resume but it doesn’t equate a GOAT status just yet.
I think there is a hasty energy to crown Usyk and I’m not sure why. I personally view him as ATG fighter. I think he’s earned that. I also think he’s a top ten or twelve heavyweights ever. I don’t rate him over Holyfield and Lewis but I can see him being over the Klitshckos if you need a specific tier. If you think Wlad is on the cusp of the top twelve then it’s fair to put Usyk in if you think Usyk is better than Wlad, which I do.
Hey Bread, Hope you’re well. 154, what happened to Tim Tszyu? He was vulnerable (Gausha) but getting better. He had favorable matchmaking and a push behind him. But he was real. A dog. Living the life, fighting them all. And his career took a dramatic turn when he accepted Fundora on short notice. What’s your take on it? Even philosophically? By accepting the fight – it was Thurman originally – and then not quitting, he messed up his career. Then he took on Murtazaliev. And now it seems he’s done. Dude was about to be a megastar and Ortiz/Boots other rival. Ortiz/Madrimov, Madrimov is better than given credit for. People don't measure his skills. Same with Ortiz who is less flashy than a lot and a puncher/pressure fighter but does lots of things well – and is a dog. Which makes me think; how much (more) impressed are you now with Ortiz? Is the potential classic matchup Boots/Ortiz closer in your opinion? A few months later we thought Conwell could have replaced him but it seems not. Fundora/Boots seems like Fundora found his groove. Gotta be hard to beat. How do you see the fight with Ennis playing out? Michel Soro, can you make a quick review of his career? You gotta realise how far behind France was in terms of boxing mentality, facilities, available sparrings, etc... I trained with him in France from 2013 and 2017. Dude was working half-time, training in a youth club with amateurs, cooking his own meals. If he had had the resources some have in the UK or US or even in Mexico, his story could have been different. He finally got a break with Abel Sanchez in Big Bear but was older. He was brought up to the US to be a scapegoat and stopped Tapia in his backyard. He lost a super close fight on a split decision against peak Brian Castaño. He then fought rising Madrimov twice and after a controversial first fight drew with him. He fought directly after, outboxed unbeaten Magomed Kurbanov in Russia and lost “officially”. What do you think of him and where he could have gone? 160, Sheeraz, love the dude. Andy Lee and the push of the Saudis. Smart, educated, humble, mean, technical and can punch. How far is the ceiling? Itauma, Opeita, Benavidez or... Itauma for Usyk? Green but would arguably beat Dubois right now. Would he be the only HW with a shot – or the one with the biggest (albeit small)? Jake Paul, who is the best real boxer with a name/recognisable face that Jake Paul could legitimately beat? Anyone between 168 and heavyweight? How do you see him vs Berlanga at cruiserweight say in 3 months? Cheers Diego
Bread’s response: There is always a reason for everything. But I am perplexed at what happened to Tim Tszyu. I also thought he was the goods. But let me take a try at this. Tszyu had the PUSH behind him that most fighters would sell their soul for. He got the fights he wanted and needed to help him ascend. He was able to get fights with Tony Harrison and Terrell Guasha, two PBC ageing fighters. He was able to fight Brian Mendoza who’s a solid contender who gave Fundora his only loss. So I don’t know if Tszyu’s matchmaking was THAT awful. I would’ve favored Tim Tszyu if he had fought Keith Thurman. But it didn’t happen. I thought he would beat Fundora. The cut happened and I thought he performed well.
The Bahkram fight is where everything fell apart. I feel like Tszyu is a little too full of himself and I don’t mean it in an insulting way. But Tszyu fights like he has Marvin Hagler’s chin and GGG’s punch. He has neither. But here is the irony. Marvin Hagler had a great chin but he always fought with his hands up and chin down. He had humility with one of his greatest strengths. GGG had a big punch but in his prime he was consistent with his jab, consistent with body punches, and he never fought recklessly despite being a great puncher. Tszyu fights like whoever he hits will go to sleep within a few rounds. And no matter what they hit him with, he’s going to take it. It’s one thing to have confidence but it’s something different to be too full of yourself.
I think Tszyu’s loss to Bahkram unfortunately ruined him. The beating was too long and brutal and conclusive. But even after that, he was afforded the luxury of getting to fight Joey Spencer in a comeback fight in his home country. He won that fight fairly easy but in the Fundora rematch, you could see he wasn’t willing to walk through the same fire he attempted to walk through in the first Fundora fight.
It’s a shame simply because I never find joy in a fighter losing their place or status. I don’t know Tim but he seems like a good dude. Sometimes we look for intricate reasons behind things. But sometimes it’s a simple answer. Tim Tszyu was viewed as an A fighter. But he turned out to be a B fighter. I think that’s more in line with what really happened than anything because Bahkram was not viewed as an elite fighter. I’ve seen Bahkram fight several times and he’s a solid guy but Tszyu made him look like a prime GGG and he’s not that. If Bahkram was that good, he wouldn’t have taken step aside money for so long waiting when he was in line for the Jermell Charlo shot. In my opinion He didn’t take the shot because there was a lack of confidence that he could win. I am not quite sure Bahkram is the monster he appeared to be vs Tszyu.
Madrimov is very good, he’s just not the best guy at 154. Ortiz is better than very good but he has to do more. Hopefully Ortiz vs Boots gets made but I will not hold my breath.
Fundora has definitely found his groove. I think he’s a problem for everyone at 154. Boots vs Fundora would be some match up. I would favor Boots over the field at 154 but I am starting to believe Fundora would be his toughest fight. Boots would have to be on his A game because Fundora is improving, which means his ability at the top level has not plateaued. Fundora’s improvement on his stance and jab, are invaluable…
Michel Soro was an underrated player at 154. I thought he was good enough to be champion. But boxing is more than ability. Your connections do matter and unfortunately for Soro, the promoters were just not keen on promoting a black Frenchmen with a counter punching style.
Sheeraz has the potential to be the man at 168lbs. But I need to see more, against more styles. But the Berlanga performance was a great way to start off his journey in a new weight division.
I like Moses Itauma. I’m just wondering how he will be pushed. I’m not a person who says slow a fighter down because they're young. Most of my favorite fighters were great and HOF by their late 20s. For example, the millennial critics call Mike Tyson overrated. But Mike Tyson was ready to fight for a title by the time he was 20. No one thought he should slow down because he was good enough. If Itauma is the goods, I say let’s see.
Jake Paul can beat several real fighters. Especially ageing ones who are on the downside. I recently stated that Berlanga is the perfect opponent for Paul right now. And I think it’s a 50/50 type of match up but I would favor Paul because I believe he would be more confident.
Breadman, What did you think of Barrios performance? It felt to me that he gave so much respect to Manny that he almost didn't come prepared to fight. Bob Santos was all over him for touching gloves every round. Have you seen Paulie Malignaggi’s comments ? Thanks for your time and consideration, Mike in Massachusetts
Bread’s response: I have NOT seen Paulie’s comments but knowing him, I would assume he didn’t think too highly of Barrios’s performance. I personally think Barrios is a nice kid. He has heart but he’s not a mean person. There is a difference.
Barrios shows some excellent surface level stuff. His stance is great. He has good had placement. He has a solid jab with good punch delivery. But his total package is just not on the level of the elite. He has never put it all together on fight night.
You’re correct, Bob Santos recognized that Barrios was being too nice. He told him to stop. But Barrios kept being nice. I don’t know what else to say about that except Mario is competitive but he’s not mean. I don’t want to criticize Mario’s performance too much. Here is why. It’s not easy to deliver in a big moment against an ageing legend if you aren’t special. It’s why I never criticized Mike Tyson for the Larry Holmes win. Holmes was an ageing great fighter and he went on after Tyson to have some fine moments. But Tyson was expected to deliver a spectacular ko over a capable opponent and he did. But Tyson is special. Mario Barrios is good, he’s not special. So as the fight got closer, I wasn’t expecting Barrios to highlight Manny Pacquiao. I thought the fight would be competitive and it was. So I’m not going to criticize a fighter for performing at his baseline level.
Sup Breadman, I saw on X you say you would like to see Opetaia or Benavidez bump with Usyk despite being smaller. It got me thinking about fighters that are considered small/short for their weight class. Guys like Gervonta, Canelo, and even Usyk to an extent have success despite said “size disadvantage”, and in the past we saw Pacquiao dominate despite being undersized the majority of his career. My question is being undersized or the smaller man in a fight sometimes be an advantage? If so, how? Can you give some examples of when a fighter used their size “disadvantage to their advantage? Why do you think Opetaia and Benavidez would do well against Usyk? On another note, I know you’re an Eagles fan, I’m a lifelong Cowboys fan (unfortunately) lol. I’m curious, what’s your opinion on Dak? He is very polarizing as you can imagine in the DFW area, but he’s always played the Birds well, what’s your opinion on him as a player as a birds fan? Thanks
Bread’s response: I believe Opetaia and Benavidez would give Usyk competitive fights because I think size works against heavyweights after they get over 6’5 and over 250lbs. Because of stamina and agility. They get tired, they can’t avoid the punches and now they’re big targets instead of big boxers. I believe Usyk’s gifts vs heavyweights are his agility and endurance. He tires them out. I think it’s harder to tire out Opetaia and Benavidez.
However, a size disadvantage for Pacquiao is different for Usyk. Let me explain. Pacquiao is still going against coordinated men. He’s still fighting guys that are 5’10 and walk around at 170lbs. They haven’t lost their coordination yet. So Pacquiao beating elite welterweights is probably tougher than Usyk beating elite heavyweights although the heavyweights have more prestige.
There are so many great fighters who used their lack of size as an advantage. Too many to name. But Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson and Manny Pacquiao stand out. However, I want to highlight one name that rarely gets mentioned. Dwight Qawi. He was a 5’6 light-heavyweight and crusierweight champion. His jab was his controlling weapon. He threw it under the opponent’s guard and sort of angled it up to the chin when he wasn’t hitting the body with it. It was one of the great jabs of the 80s.
Hi Breadman, I pray God is blessing and continues to bless you, your family and the fans of your mailbag and their families. Breadman, you called it with Pacmaan and Barrios. Do you have a crystal ball in your house? LOL! Never in my wildest dreams after seeing Pacman’s last performance against Ugas and how horrible he looked against the kickboxer did I think he had any chance of winning. I just knew Pacmaan was getting knocked out. He actually won the fight and it is a shame that the politics of the sport does this to its participants. We were robbed of a glorious moment. It is like when Duran beat Iran Barkley. Another time I was wrong because I just knew Barkley was going to murder Duran. That is why you fight the fights. Maybe Crawford has a shot against Canelo after all. You just never know. One thing you said that struck me is when you said he might not have been up for the fight with the kickboxer, but he was definitely up for this fight and obviously much better prepared. It is sad that we as fans and him as the fighter were robbed of a great moment. The politics of boxing need to stop because it is hurting a truly great sport. Peter Allen
Bread’s response: Thank you. I don’t like giving an assessment of a fight then changing my view points. But the more I thought about Pac and Barrios the more I felt Pac had a chance. I couldn’t ignore how much trouble Barrios has with speed. I also factor in motivation. Discipline > motivation but motivation is a real thing. Pac was up for Barrios and Barrios is the right guy for Pac stylistically.
I would’ve loved to see Pac get the win. But in all honesty, a draw was fair verdict. Pac may have lost the last three rounds. So if you thought he won six out of the first nine rounds, and lost the last three, then you thought it was a draw.
Yes, I have a strong feeling Crawford pulls out a tight decision vs Canelo.
I think the way fighters view and react to the challenges they face tells you a lot about them, where they’re at, how they value themselves and where they see themselves going. An example I’ve heard is Tyson Fury being asked what it would mean or how difficult it would be to beat Wladimir Klitschko. His response was "He's just another bare bum in the shower" ie. he's just another man to me. It's a measure of their internal capabilities, and a way of making the intangibles tangible. Crawford is like that. To the point where he has Canelo spooked. Not because in response to jibes about his resume he responded by effectively pointing out that Canelo lost every time he faced an elite fighter. Rather because when he said he hasn't thrown his best punch yet you could see that Canelo believes it. It was in the Piers Morgan interview on YouTube.
Bread’s response: Bud Crawford seems at peace with himself. He’s more comfortable on camera as he’s acquired more experience over the years expressing himself. I don’t think he will be unnerved by the big moment and big task. If Canelo beats him, it will be because he was better. Not because Bud fell apart mentally.
“Motivation is good, discipline is better”. What a privilege it is to be able to witness Usyk go about his business. He has massive personality, is humble, possesses incredible skill levels, is an absolute dog and a serial winner. If he was American or from the UK he would be an even bigger superstar. That was the most vicious and spiteful version of Usyk I have seen at heavyweight. From what I can see, he now has put complete daylight between himself and every other contender in the division. Who is left for him to fight? He seems like a throwback legacy fighter with no one left to fight that will improve his legacy. Who do you think he fights next? I would say the only on left who has at least earned his shot is Joseph Parker, albeit I only see one outcome in that fight. Kabayel might also be a fan friendly fight. I don’t want to see Fury 3 and it is far too early for Itauma. What I found really bizarre in the run up to this fight was the way credible pundits, who eulogise Usyk’s all-time greatness after he fights, then bet against him versus Dubois. The second fight was just as one-sided as the first fight, which was only talked about as a competitive encounter due to the debate around the “low-blow”. It seems to me that these people are being paid as pundits but providing analysis and predictions as fans. As someone who devotes time each week to providing insight and debate, how hard is it for you to detach your hopes/wants as a fan from what you see as an expert in your chosen field? As a follow up, what pundits do you enjoy listening too (even if you don’t agree with them)? Do you get to listen to analysis /punditry from other countries? I wondered if you ever had time to either listen or converse with Barry Jones (BBC and DAZN). Personally, I think he is the best in the business at the moment. I think you would enjoy being a guest on the BBC Boxing podcast with Steve Bunce and Barry Jones. I for one would enjoy listening to it. Thanks for taking the time, all the best. Mark, Glasgow
Bread’s response: I believe several of the prominent opinions in boxing are bought and paid for. So that’s why you have the flip flopping. It’s more than just a change of mind. Personally, I am happy for anyone who gets a big opportunity. So if Joseph Parker gets the Usyk shot, I respect it. But I have seen Parker at the top level before. I feel like I know what he has as a fighter. I believe he has improved but not to a point where he can beat Usyk. I’m not saying Parker doesn’t deserve his shot. But I would like to see fresh new blood in the big moment.
I love the Usyk vs Kabayel match up. Kabayel is the division’s best body puncher. And Usyk seems a little sensitive to body punching. There is also Itauma. Itauma is very young, but he’s also very good. I love that match up. You also have Benavidez and Opetaia. I believe both would be very competitive with Usyk and more competitive than Dubois. I suspect that Usyk is a fighter who handles bigger guys better than smaller guys. Mairis Breidis is still his hardest fight to date and I think it was because Breidis is quick enough to challenge Usyk’s attacks and he has enough stamina to offset Usyk’s late round, fight stealing rhythm.
What is like to work with a great matchmaker in Tom Brown? I feel like he gets underrated as a matchmaker when the great matchmakers get mentioned. Where do you rank him as far as the matchmakers you have worked with?
Bread’s response: Tom Brown is great to work with but I haven’t had the opportunity to work with him as a matchmaker. When I started working with Tom he was more of a promoter. Nevertheless, I think Tom is one of the true great boxing men in the game. But I will tell you something. The best thing about Tom, is how much he loves being a father. Tom and I have that in common. He really loves being a father and I really respect him for that.
I would have to really sit down and do forensic research to rank matchmakers. But I can tell you my personal experiences without research. John Beninati was the top matchmaker that I have personally worked with. John would call me, give me about three or four opponents, tell me what the money would be for each, so I can weigh the risk vs reward and I would make the pick. We were able to get Julian Williams to 22-0 and number one in the world with that format.
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